Oxygen Basic

Programming => Tools => Topic started by: John on September 28, 2018, 09:23:26 PM

Title: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on September 28, 2018, 09:23:26 PM
Quote
PluriBASIC is now generating perfect code for o2!

Hi Brian,

Will you be making a product announcement on the Oxygen Basic forum?

I was thinking about your financial dilemma and maybe offering PluriBASIC on a subscription basis might be a way to go. You can offer La Carte targets or a Pro subscription that covers all the targets.

Do you have a demo version I could take for a spin?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on October 04, 2018, 11:18:14 AM
 Hello John, PluriBASIC is now making perfect team with Oxygen, but there is
still a long way to go, i need to create a way in which a community creates the
stock code for all the DDT statements and native functions.

 Under PluriBASIC, Oxygen now can even do what it does not do natively, like
creating BYVAL parameters, it can even generate debugging code so that the IDE
follows the execution path, but a little more work is required to make it fully
functional and useful for everyone.

 With some help, i would say maybe a month... by myself, maybe a year.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 14, 2018, 06:41:13 PM
Hi Brian,

You should give your new PARSE$ function a spin with the EXTRACT code challenge on All BASIC.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 14, 2018, 07:34:03 PM
What do you mean John?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 14, 2018, 08:09:00 PM
Check out the LIKE + code challenge on www.AllBASIC.info and see if your PARSE$ function would apply.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 20, 2018, 06:57:54 PM
Brian,

Are you stil seeing any action from the PowerBasic community?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 21, 2018, 07:16:41 AM
I have not been paying much attention. I have been busy. Why? Anything worth seeing?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 21, 2018, 09:01:04 AM
I thought you were still selling into that market. (PB2PHP, ...)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 21, 2018, 09:26:09 AM
I am. I just havent promoted it lately.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 21, 2018, 10:12:13 AM
Your O2 direction sounds exciting and giving Charles the feedback he needs to mature the BASIC.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 21, 2018, 10:43:23 AM

 I agree. What is slowing me down is that i dont know much about Oxygen yet,
i am learning on the go, and im struggling with other areas.

 Id you have examples for using SDK on Oxygen, i am needing them now. :)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 21, 2018, 11:10:09 AM
DLLC SB extension module written in O2 might be a good resouce to tap. A lot of goodies in there.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 22, 2018, 07:24:09 PM
I think PluriBASIC is a much smarter way to go to end up with O2 binaries. High level includes only take you so far.


Your BASIC compiler pre-processor reminds me of the C BASIC gcc define pre-processor I did.

Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 23, 2018, 11:58:15 AM
I was hoping Chris would come alive with EZGUI for O2 but a compiler scripting front end tells a better story.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 23, 2018, 04:11:22 PM
Perhaps when im done, Chris will be able to re-compile EZGUI to 64 bit.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 23, 2018, 05:04:56 PM
That's encouraging news!

What will the cost of your BASIC -> O2 be?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 03, 2018, 12:48:15 AM
The English definition of Pluri means "combining form"
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on December 03, 2018, 02:33:04 PM
I named if because it is not singular, but plural.

Plural means more than one.

https://www.google.com.mx/search?ei=c64FXLi0NpGctAXW-YaQBQ&q=plural+definition+in+english&oq=plural+definition&gs_l=psy-ab.3.1.0l2j0i30l8.10373.10476..12405...0.0..0.143.285.0j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.fNNt3hqcACg

For example someone who speaks more than one language, is plurilingual. Since PluriBASIC can generate code for more than one platform, i thought it was apropriate to name it accordingly.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 03, 2018, 09:20:57 PM
I really like the direction you're going with PluriBASIC. I know the concept is solid because I'm already enjoying O2 magic in DLLC.

I don't know of any scripting languages that can call API functions with dynamic on-the-fly FFI definitions, call virtual DLL functions from a string of O2 code and access / create most C structures and variable types.

I don't want to make you cry talking about DLLC's low level COM functionality.

Best part, one include.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on December 04, 2018, 06:10:17 AM
I don't know of any scripting languages that can call API functions with dynamic on-the-fly FFI definitions, call virtual DLL functions from a string of O2 code and access / create most C structures and variable types.

Hey hey hey, I'm still here! ;)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 04, 2018, 10:29:38 AM
If you ever find yourself void of a mission, the Script BASIC project is looking for an AIR class developer to be the lead for the Windows platform. Mike, this has your name on the door.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 04, 2018, 06:05:08 PM
Quote from: Brian@JRS
At the current step I'm going to finish it by 2030.

If you make an open source project of the O2 version, it may get done a lot sooner.

You could sell a Pro version with support.

Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 08, 2018, 11:58:31 PM
Brian,

If you achieve being able to port PowerBasic code to O2 64 bit, how many potential sales of your BASIC do you perceive?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on December 09, 2018, 07:49:22 PM
I don't know... i haven't been seeing as much activity as in the past...
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 09, 2018, 08:09:30 PM
The lack of commitment by Drake and the BASIC idle for so many year may limit your potential. Silver lining is there will be a wealth of PB code that O2 users can tap.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 11, 2018, 11:29:03 AM
Brian,

I bet thinBasic would be a good candidate for your BASIC to O2 converter.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on March 07, 2019, 07:04:26 PM
Brian,

Are you still working on a O2 translator?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on March 11, 2019, 06:26:34 AM
It's mostly done. Im just adding the last stock code.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on March 12, 2019, 05:05:33 PM
Are you at a point where you could show a PowerBASIC example converted to 64 bit O2?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on March 20, 2019, 08:30:19 AM
Yes. However there are still missing features.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on March 22, 2019, 04:25:35 AM
A way to generate funds and mature your converter is to take on PowerBASIC projects folks need a 64 bit solution for and are willing to pay you to do it.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on June 06, 2019, 10:14:36 PM
Brian,

Did you ever get a response from Jose Roca if he would allow you to convert his include files to O2?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on June 06, 2019, 10:21:08 PM

No. I am currently making only the declarations i need for a certain task.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on June 07, 2019, 12:04:48 AM
I would use O2's C header include feature and forgo creating another copy.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 25, 2019, 01:41:07 PM
Brian,

Any news when you will be releasing  a PowerBasic to O2 conversion tool?

Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 25, 2019, 05:04:27 PM
Hello John... almost all is ready to start promoting it (permissions and base
functionality), Except that it is not complete. My regular bill-paying job does
not allow me to keep working on PluriBASIC...

 In thoery i could sell it as-is, and allow customers to code and share all the
core features, but i dont know how many would be willing to purchase
PluriBASIC like this.

 If i knew my customers would be willing to buy it like this, i could release it
in a few days.

Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 25, 2019, 06:57:41 PM
How about offering it as is as shareware and if you want updates and your support they need to register it. (an annual subscription around $50 would fly with me)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on November 25, 2019, 08:02:41 PM
$49.99 or 44.99 would look more politically correct. ;D
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 26, 2019, 12:29:03 AM
This is the program B4A (Basic for Android - BASIC to Java converter) uses and they have made a lot of money.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 26, 2019, 08:48:10 PM
 Sure, i have no problem with this. Actually i was tihnking something similar,
I was thinking about a first release at $ 79.99 (to be politically correct as Mike states  ;D )
and an annual subscription of 40. What do you think?

 I have a window of time in about a week, maybe i can use that time to make all
the preparations, a release and maybe even work with my customers for any unexpected
issues that could arise.

 Since PluriBASIC 6.0 was a complete re-make of the engine (absolutely nothing from version 5.0
was used, not even the IDE), it would be intended to be used exclusively for WIndows applications (for now),
because even when it already supports other conversions (like Android and PHP), the implementations
are equally missing the newest updates.

I attached a picture for explanation of the following paragraph.

Currently, PluriBASIC 6.0 has a tab in the ide called Stock (see A), which is where the stock
code is located. The stock tab contains labels for various target platforms, including Oxygen (see B).
in it, you can search or create stock code, including the core functions (See C). Many of the core functions
are complete, and can be found there and even modified or perfected, but some are still missing.

 If i release a version of PluriBASIC like this, those core functions will need to be written. It makes a
pretty good hobby project, and the functions you make could be shared with others via a forum, or you could
see what other programmers are making. This would even allow the ngine to be optimized way beyond what
a single person could achieve!

 What do you guys think? Should i release it like this?


 
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 27, 2019, 04:03:17 AM
Go for it.

I still think the $49.99 annual subscription is the way to go.

This will also generate income from clients that have a PB project they want moved to 64 bits.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on November 28, 2019, 03:53:19 AM
Brian,

Let's be frank: you want to charge for your indie product that noone has ever tested or even tried for size, pretty much the same amount of money (or considerably more given that annual subscription extra) that PB Inc. charges for its own pro-grade product field proven over the decades of intensive utilization by thousands of people -- both hobbyists and professionals -- all over the world.

For instance, my own enthusiasm about PB dates at least 30 years back to the times of Iron Curtain and a pirated copy of Turbo Basic that used to beat its closest competitor, MS QB4.5, in all respects.

Your product is in fact an alpha of indie PB-to-O2 translator with an open-source back end. If it proves to be worthwhile at all, how long do you think it will take a 3rd party clone of same (or better) quality to appear completely free of charge, out of pure sporting interest of blocking your meager money inflow out of existence just for the hell of it?

John's suggestion of free unsupported release with unhindered base functionality and additional very fairly priced annual subscriptions seems much, much more feasible to me than your Napoleonic plans to conquer the business world by a cavalry hurdle. That way you're at least going to have a chance to promote your raw alpha-stage intermediate first to a beta, then to a release candidate, and finally to a first stable release worthy of being paid for.

People would also need to see what level of support you're physically able to provide to back up your maintenance promises and their own expectations in this regard. Once you get your first buck ever for your PB6, failure to provide what you're now promising so eagerly will be fraught with legal persecution. Are you prepared to face that?

I may be sounding harsh but that's the way things work in real business where my own personal service record amounts to 25 years. ;)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Patrice Terrier on November 28, 2019, 04:55:10 AM
About PowerBASIC, how many new users in 7 years, and how many formal users that have moved for ever.  :o

Who will learn the limited proprietary DDT syntax nowdays.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 28, 2019, 10:29:34 AM
I would be happy to be your first annual subscription customer if you offer it at $49.99.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 28, 2019, 01:41:49 PM
you want to charge for your indie product that noone has ever tested or even tried for size, pretty much the same amount of money (or considerably more given that annual subscription extra) that PB Inc. charges for its own pro-grade product field proven over the decades of intensive utilization by thousands of people -- both hobbyists and professionals -- all over the world.

 Hello Mike, PowerBASIC is $ 100 USD, unless you want the classic version which is $ 75.00 USD

 I have posted some of my tests, benchmarks and even size comparisons. I know i am only one guy but its is not fair to say "noone" has tested even for size. Even you saw my benchamrk posts.

 I think you are missing how programming works. The price of a software is not based on how long you have been on the market, nobody has to "earn" the right to price their products beyond the quality and usefullness of it. Simply, if a tool is useful, and solves an important issue, or something like that, i think it is fair to price the product with a price that at least covers the time worked on it.

 Would it be fair if i charge every user for the time I invested in it? Of course not. Some times when i work with Shawn, he pays me up to 300 USD for the work i can make in a few hours. Would it be fair that since i can make that ammount per hour... i charged my customers for all the hours i put into PluriBASIC? Of course not! Imagine if i charged 1 cent per test compilation i have invested in PluriBASIC? The count would be more than $ 8,900.00 USD.

 That said... I understand what you are saying, but try to be on my place. I dont plan to get more than 20 or 30 sales. Probably much less. Look around, its dessertic! Imagine i go for the best and get 30 sales at $ 50.00 USD each. Now consider i have been working on PluriBASIC 6.0 for 4 years now. Would it be fair to get $ 1500.00 USD for 4 years of work (sometimes working 12 hours a day for months)?

 But im not complaining. What i said was that i had something similar in mind. Not that i was going to charge that for it. Actually i secretly had that price because i was planning to share a % of the sales with Charles. I think it is apropriate.

 True, the 64 bit part of PluriBASIC is built on top of Oxygen... but you do not notice that it was build on top of the already tested features of it. You have no idea how much effort has been put to avoid the (natural) issues of newer features.

For instance, my own enthusiasm about PB dates at least 30 years back to the times of Iron Curtain and a pirated copy of Turbo Basic that used to beat its closest competitor, MS QB4.5, in all respects.

 Good for you. And for every enthisiasts out there. But i cant pay the gas bill on enthusiasm. As much as i would like to. And note that im not trying to be rude or passive aggressive. Im trying to be realistic. Why didnt an "indie" company like PowerBASIC (compared to the titans like Microsoft) continued working on developing PowerBASIC? Because it was not worth it anymore Mike. It wasnt profitable anymore and it wasnt worth it. sadly... If you want a compiler to flourish, everybody has to make it for them selves, for free, or make it worth for companies to continue working on them.

 I cant afford to work on it for 1500 a year. Being "indie" and that.

Your product is in fact an alpha of indie PB-to-O2 translator with an open-source back end. If it proves to be worthwhile at all, how long do you think it will take a 3rd party clone of same (or better) quality to appear completely free of charge, out of pure sporting interest of blocking your meager money inflow out of existence just for the hell of it?

 Probably much less than a loner like me. Why dont you try it? Try making it, lets see if you can afford to make it free for everybody simply because it was built on top of Oxygen. Be realistic. :)

John's suggestion of free unsupported release with unhindered base functionality and additional very fairly priced annual subscriptions seems much, much more feasible to me than your Napoleonic plans to conquer the business world by a cavalry hurdle. That way you're at least going to have a chance to promote your raw alpha-stage intermediate first to a beta, then to a release candidate, and finally to a first stable release worthy of being paid for.

 Where did you get that idea that i want to conquer anything? Mike... you sound a bit jealous. You know, i havent told you anything, but every time you post something like that aimed to me, i get emails (im not telling from who) about you being jealous... that you also wanted to do the same but you couldn't. Please dont force me to believe that those comments are true.

 No need. If you want, you can help me. Or even... if you make your own, i can help you. Im sure that you could make very good stock code for PluriBASIC or even your own comverter or compiler.

 Not trying to break rules... but PluriBASIC is already being tested by a group of testers. It has been for a while now (granted we haven't been active in the past few months because of side obligations). You dont know it all Mike. Not all news have to pass through you to be approved.

People would also need to see what level of support you're physically able to provide to back up your maintenance promises and their own expectations in this regard.

 Well, again i ask for your (and everybody else's) understanding. Since the income im probably going to get from it (shuld i release it) is probably not going to be enoughto pay the bills for a year, i think it will be understandable that im not going to be able to give support 24/7 or something like that, let alone hire staff for support.

 I will be able to fix problems reasonably. I respect my customers. But i also expect respect from my customers. I appreciate a $ 50.00 sale, but its unreasonable to be ensalaved for hours to each one responding questions indefinitely because of it. The key is being reasonable. Both parties.

Once you get your first buck ever for your PB6, failure to provide what you're now promising so eagerly will be fraught with legal persecution. Are you prepared to face that?

 Come on Mike, dont be childish. Now you sound like you are scared about me releasing PluriBASIC... what have i promised? time after time i have stated that i there is still a lot of coding required in order to aciheve what i would like (not what i have promised!). I even started replied to John's question with "What do you guys think? Should i release it like this?". Again... being reasonable is the key. Also... Haven't you heard about TOS?

 Besides a few odd ones, everyone i have ever talked to, sold to, or made bussiness with around the PowerBASIC community are completely amazing folk. I would not expect less from them but being resonable.

I may be sounding harsh but that's the way things work in real business where my own personal service record amounts to 25 years. ;)

 I started at 11... now im 38... True... i started with PowerBASIC in 2010... but i already had a programming history since 1994. Then when i was 15, i used to sell POS applications made by myself to local bussinesses.

 Lets be cool mike. You seem to always assume im am a noob. Im not. You seem to expect from me to offer my product dirt cheap, give outstanding support, base my price on factors unrelated to the usefulness of the product like charge less because "anybody can do it"... be reasonable. Not everybody can do it. Not everybody has. I did.

 I can of course offer it for a $ 50.00 USD annual subscription, because i think most guys in this community are cool... all i expect back is the understanding that although i will put effort in helping others I may not be available instantly, or solve issues (when/should they arise) promptly because i will probably working a side job. Is not rocket science. :)

About PowerBASIC, how many new users in 7 years, and how many formal users that have moved for ever.  :o

 Hello Patrice. yeah... It was not profitable anymore.

Who will learn the limited proprietary DDT syntax nowdays.

 Probably just a handful. What i am aiming is to support older code, not (all of the) legacy syntax. In fact, PluriBASIC supports writing code in a c++ style. Mixed with BASIC. In the future it could even support other syntaxes like swift (i like swift). :)

I would be happy to be your first annual subscription customer if you offer it at $49.99.

 Thanks John. :)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 28, 2019, 01:52:57 PM
I would probably pay more if I didn't hate everything about PowerBasic. My interest is to revive old PB code submitted by talented programmers and hope in the end it was worth the effort
 
Where you are going to make the big bucks is companies that are stuck with software written in PB but don't want to start over from scratch. The subscription folks are paying/free beta testers depending how serious they are.

Let's hope your end goal is to eliminate PB out of the equation.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 28, 2019, 02:09:18 PM
 Im sorry to dissapoint you John, that is not my end goal. But hopefully i can help somehow other programmers with a need to port their applications.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 28, 2019, 03:10:15 PM
So you wish to be a bridge to the dead?

Make PB PluriBASIC.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on November 28, 2019, 03:25:16 PM
Hi there Brian,

I acknowledge the extra mile you walked to throw in your response though I don't quite appreciate your choosing me for a target of all that verbiage. I'm having a strong impression you forget, or still don't quite realize, who you're talking to. I am not another rank and file amateur hobbying on obscure BASIC dialect exploration at my leisure time, but rather a BASIC/C/asm compiler developer with at least 15 years of practical experience in that domain. Let me point to you once again just in case you don't realize it, that all your translation headaches that took you 4 years to (hopefully mostly) resolve used to be but mere subitems in the projects I was implementing and putting to public use in those one and a half decades.

So what you are attempting to do now is very likely what I was doing when you still attended your secondary school. Thus, there's not any chance for your assumptions to be true that I might not have known what I was talking about in my response to your
Quote
$ 79.99 ... and an annual subscription of 40. What do you think?
... What do you guys think? Should i release it like this?
plea.

So what was wrong with my saying you attempt quoting your PB6 higher than PB? Classic PB goes at $75, you quote your unsupported alpha PB6 at $80. Standard PB goes at $100 overall, you quote your supported alpha at $80+$40 per annum=$120 minimum. So what's wrong with my statement, really?

You got my response as straight-forward and exhaustive as it only could be. You asked for it -- you got it.

In fact, your message was tl;dr for me: you got the wrong number, mister. But as a moderator, I'll still keep it in place where it is just for the sake of would-be users, if any, to see how much hope, wishful thinking and pure emotion you're putting in what should instead be nothing personal, just business. Though I'll stress again that a mike you were addressing there should've rather been a John Doe namereck.

But don't you ever dare question again my proficiency in what I'm doing or saying publicly here or elsewhere, or you'll risk seeing me accept that challenge of yours if only, as I said, "out of sheer sporting interest". ;)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 28, 2019, 04:44:06 PM
So you wish to be a bridge to the dead?

Make PB PluriBASIC.

 Not really John. I like PowerBASIC, i would like to extend
upon it as my customers need, but im not trying to take its customer
base, but to offer them an extra tool. :) Everybody wins.

I acknowledge the extra mile you walked to throw in your response though I don't quite appreciate your choosing me for a target of all that verbiage. I'm having a strong impression you forget, or still don't quite realize, who you're talking to. I am not another rank and file amateur hobbying on obscure BASIC dialect exploration at my leisure time, but rather a BASIC/C/asm compiler developer with at least 15 years of practical experience in that domain. Let me point to you once again just in case you don't realize it, that all your translation headaches that took you 4 years to (hopefully mostly) resolve used to be but mere subitems in the projects I was implementing and putting to public use in those one and a half decades.

 Thats impressive. Nice. Well if my post would not have been TLDR for you perhaps you would not have taken it as a "target for verbiage". I Dont believe that you are jealous... i said "dont make me believe it [when others say it]". I even said i think you could do it as well, and I offered my help to you. So, what is the problem? I know you have more knowledge than me in some areas, but i think its quite possible that i have more knowledge and experience than you in some others. So, i would like also some credit for it. :) Im not a newbie you know? :)

So what you are attempting to do now is very likely what I was doing when you still attended your secondary school. Thus, there's not any chance for your assumptions to be true that I might not have known what I was talking about in my response to your
Quote
$ 79.99 ... and an annual subscription of 40. What do you think?
... What do you guys think? Should i release it like this?
plea.

 Fair enough. I wrote a TLDR paragraph here but i dont think you could understand it. Not because a lack of intelligence (your intelligence is not being questioned right now), but because my situation is completely unknown for you. May I know your age?

But don't you ever dare question again my proficiency in what I'm doing or saying publicly here or elsewhere, or you'll risk seeing me accept that challenge of yours if only, as I said, "out of sheer sporting interest". ;)

 Again?... Well, i neved questioned your "proficiency", As i said, i believe you are quite capable of doing it... But to be honest im tempted to do it just because i would like to see it. I would like to see a tool made by you. That would be cool! :) As i said, i will be your first customer. When is this projected for? $ 49.99.. right? It will be awesome! Please do! (no offense).
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Aurel on November 28, 2019, 11:46:18 PM
for the difference
I AM
amateur hobbying & wanna-be developer on obscure(Y) BASIC dialect exploration at my leisure time
 :D
good luck !
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Patrice Terrier on November 29, 2019, 12:12:40 AM
Brian

I have been a long time third party addon provider for PowerBASIC, since the time of PBDK and DolceVita that i wrote with my friend Philippe Monteil.

WinLIFT and GDImage have never been a big success in the PowerBASIC community compared to the WinDev market.
This is because of the scale of their respective markets, and mostly because PowerBASIC is aimed to people who prefer to reinvent the wheel rather than buying one already done.

There is no way to make a living from a product that has no future.

Every attempt to revival PowerBASIC is a waste of time in my opinion, except for the dinosaurus generation.
I know what i am speaking about, because i am one of them ;)


Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Chris Boss on November 29, 2019, 09:46:37 AM
Brian,

Pluri-Basic will fall or stand on its own merits. One of the first things I learned years ago was "don't worry about what others think is best for your product". Everybody has an opinion. What matters is how you view your software and what goals you have for it. Look at a language like Python. It wasn't designed from the beginning to be the next big hit in programming languages. It was an inhouse project by its developer to solve a problem and hopefully make them more productive. Later when released as open source it caught on and others promoted it. Now look at its popularity today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Aq44Pze-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Aq44Pze-w)

If software is developed with good concepts and quality work for whatever reasons, once it is used by others it will stand on its own merits. If the concept is good it just may become a successful product.

I didn't design my EZGUI engine to be the next big successful money maker. I originally designed it for myself. Eventually I turned it into a commercial product and while not the most successful product in the world, it did alright and paid for the time I spent on it. True the Powerbasic market has nearly died, but Powerbasic continues to be a viable tool even years after the passing of Bob Zale its creator. EZGUI suffered because of Powerbasics decline too, but it still is a powerful tool which I am currently using once again inhouse for my own development and for custom work for clients. Much of the intellectual property in EZGUI is quite unique and it provides me powerful tools to build other projects. My Visual Designer work is something few have imitate and I have plans on using that code base to build Visual Designers for other programming languages.

The point is, that don't let the goals of others dictate your own plans. True, no plan is guaranteed to succeed. But also no plan is guaranteed to fail either.

I like the concept of Pluri-Basic, especially that it is not a standalone language in of itself, but a parser front-end that can use a variety of languages on the backend. This actually makes it more powerful. You might design it to use a number of backends, but when it hits the market you may find that only one or two of them are used a lot. By being willing to adjust and learn from experience, you may find certain features of PluriBasic are more popular and you might change directions in development as you go. But you won't know until you start selling it.

It is not wrong or immoral to want to earn something from ones efforts in writing software. With all the buzz today about "Open Source", I think programmers have gotten spoiled and expect everything for free. But there is a place for proprietary software. Open Source is fraught with many of its own issues and not everything Open Sourced is the best thing to use.

Now as far as price, anything under $100 is reasonable for a product like Pluri-Basic. Sometimes in generation #1 of a product it makes sense to keep the price a bit lower (or at least offer sales), just to get a start in selling it.  I definitely think the $50 price is a "sweet spot" and very affordable, even to a hobby programmer. Not too cheap and you can make some money, but not too expensive. 

I am looking forward to the release of Pluri-Basic.

Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 29, 2019, 12:24:29 PM
@Patrice, PluriBASIC started by a wish to cover our own needs, and it has done that wonderfully. Once one gets the hang of it can do wonders in building one-day websites, with customizable skinds and custom backend behaviour. It is possible that PowerBASIC has no future, but i have been making a living building websites with it for "modern technlogy" like jQuery, Javascript, HTML, MySQL, Ajax, PHP... and more. So, even if i haven't released it, PluriBASIC already complied with making a living for me. :) But yeah... i understand what you are saying. On the "selling licenses" part, it might fall flat on its face. Who knows.

@Chris, Thanks chris. I dont see any problem with releasing at $ 50.00 USD.  I might do so in the following days. Be warned (i cant stress this enough), there are stock code that needs to be written. At the moment is it not possible to just take any code and compile it with it.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 29, 2019, 12:52:58 PM
It would be great to post what is and isn't working at this time.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Chris Boss on November 29, 2019, 01:36:44 PM
Brian,

One way to get Pluri-Basic out quicker and get some feedback is to do this:

Define it as a "Alpha" version, say Version .90. Be clear on your website that it is still currently only in the Alpha stage, but you would like to allow some to get an early chance to work with it.

Offer it for a lower price than what you plan for Version 1.0 (release version).

Define the Stock Routines that are not done yet simply as "wrappers", like this (ie. using Powerbasic syntax, since not sure of Pluri syntax yet)

Code: [Select]
SUB DefineFont (BYVAL FontID&,  BYVAL FontSize!, BYVAL FontName$, BYVAL FontProperties&)
     '  This routine has not be finished yet, but is currently called by other routines
     #ERROR_STOP "DefineFont not defined yet"
END SUB

Define the bare minimum of stock routines needed to be able to compile something reasonable. Then add a compiler directive which will stop the compiler and show an error.  Or you could instead do this:

Code: [Select]
SUB DefineFont (BYVAL FontID&,  BYVAL FontSize!, BYVAL FontName$, BYVAL FontProperties&)
     '  This routine has not be finished yet, but is currently called by other routines
     ShowErrorMsg "DefineFont not defined yet"
END SUB

and then it will compile but when run display an error message.

I personally have no problem in purchasing an Alpha version. Would be nice to experiment with it.

Now one other way to offer an Alpha version, is to call it a PreRelease Version.  The purchaser would be given the current Alpha or PreRelease version and would get (or can download) regular updates (best way is through a private child forum in your forums) and then the final release version when available.  This would give you immediate feedback while finishing it up.

Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Patrice Terrier on November 29, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
Microsoft Visual Studio Community is free for all indie programmers, how would you compete with this ?

You can create real commercial or freeware applications with it, fully compliant with all aspect of modern programming requirements.

Be realistic, and fall down on earth.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 29, 2019, 04:13:29 PM
@John the language is too extensive. The IDE already states what is not working and even hints what needs to be added and how.

@ Chris once/if you see how it is working rihgt now, you may realize this is a much better implementation at including new features. What PowerBASIC does now is parse the whole windows API, but this engine has the potential to include only the APIs required.

@Patrice Im not trying to compete with anybody. In fact I am in no rush to release.  I could very well not release it and It would still fulfill its purpose. Me releasing it, is not a crazy idea to go against big communities. It is just a hobby/small bussiness/share  idea. Mostly. Since i know its could not be good $$ and more work... I am a this point like... whatever. I mean... i havent even released it and i already was told 70 is too much for it.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on November 29, 2019, 05:41:13 PM
Don't juggle with facts, Brian.

You asked and were told that certain forumers consider 80+40+...+40=120...∞ too much for an untested/unproven/unseen product. ;)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 29, 2019, 07:46:54 PM
Don't juggle with facts, Brian.

You asked and were told that certain forumers consider 80+40+...+40=120...∞ too much for an untested/unproven/unseen product. ;)

It is neither untested nor unproven nor unseen.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on November 29, 2019, 07:53:56 PM
Point me to a link that will show me what my $50 investment will do.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on November 29, 2019, 08:24:49 PM
+1 John
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Patrice Terrier on November 30, 2019, 12:50:55 AM
Brian

The problem i see with the PB syntax is that it is limited to the DDT paradigm, that i never learned myself, while on the contrary the SDK syntax is understood by all native compilers.

You are young and the future is in your hands, why did you choose the dying PB's market is a mistery for me.
Ask yourself what programming languages are teached in school today, and what the head hunters are looking for.
That would give you the right direction to go, especially if you want  to make a living from your work, in 20 years you will still be in buisiness, but most PB's groupies will be long under earth.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on November 30, 2019, 01:36:49 AM
Define it as a "Alpha" version, say Version .90. Be clear on your website that it is still currently only in the Alpha stage
........
Offer it for a lower price than what you plan for Version 1.0 (release version).
........
I personally have no problem in purchasing an Alpha version.
........
Now one other way to offer an Alpha version, is to call it a PreRelease Version.

No sir,

What you suggest sounds weird and is totally confusing, to say the least. Alpha, beta and release candidate are not pure arbitrary juggling with words by the program author, but rather clearly defined distinct stages (https://www.oxygenbasic.org/forum/index.php?topic=1699.msg18341#msg18341) of software product development, quality assurance, and deployment.

Thus, no way can you buy an alpha of the product because it is but a very initial and early stage of testing to be performed "in-house". Consequently, you'll have to buy the entire "house" as a minimum. Alpha is exactly what PB6 currently is; so far we were only presented a few test results that Brian obtained by running some tests at home all on his own, long before anybody else could have a chance to verify them publicly, hence more objectively.

What alpha testing should be followed by now is called beta testing, which presupposes a team of 3rd party testers to assess the declared quality and confirm (or not) that the product stands by its declared specs. Again, it wouldn't be reasonable to charge anything for a beta product that has a fair chance of failing to comply.

Further reading on the subject:
https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/difference-between-alpha-and-beta-testing/
https://www.tutorialspoint.com/software_testing_dictionary/release_candidate.htm
etc.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on November 30, 2019, 08:54:42 PM
@ John, there hare dozens of posts with screenshots and explanations of the features of PluriBASIC on the forums, but yes, i will put together a better explanation of what it does.

@ Mike,  from the "TLDR" post:

... but PluriBASIC is already being tested by a group of testers. It has been for a while now (granted we haven't been active in the past few months because of side obligations)...

 PluriBASIC is currently in advanced BETA state.

 @ Patrice, when i first tried PowerBASIC, i was flabbergasted with the ease to put together an application, the consistency of the functions and the availability of the string management features. Those features are not easily done in other languages. They can be made, but the code becomes cluttered or requiring include files. PowerBASIC is very simple, yet so powerful. For example for sorting arrays. You can use one line of code, compared to the few (not many, but not one) lines of code required in C++. What i like in PowerBASIC is that I can focus on what my code does, instead of "how it does it".

 But yes, i realize this alone is not enough to keep users with it. This is why PluriBASIC (despite the name) also supports C++ syntax to an extent. You can define functions, structs macros and other stuff with the bracketed syntax and even mix the code along with the BASIC code. You can write a C++ app and compile it with PowerBASIC (32bits) or write PowerBASIC code and compile it to 64bits using Oxygen... or commpile PHP scripts... whatever rocks your boat. If you dont like DDT, go ahead and write pure SDK programs in either PowerBASIC or C++ style. For example, in PluriBASIC you can either do:

Code: [Select]
int main()
  {
      cout "Hello World";   
      return 0; 
  }

Or...

Code: [Select]
FUNCTION PBMAIN() AS LONG

    STDOUT "Hello world";
   
    FUNCTION = 0       

END FUNCTION

Or even...

Code: [Select]
FUNCTION PBMAIN() AS LONG

    cout "Hello world";

    RETURN 0

END FUNCTION

 And yes... this is also compilable with PowerBASIC 32bit.

 PluriBASIC started as BasictoPHP, but the name soon was too small for it... now the name PluriBASIC is getting small again, because in it is not only BASIC anymore. I Do realize there is a need to go with the flow and my goal is to at least try to keep up. Thats why i said it would be cool to also support Swift syntax. :)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on December 01, 2019, 03:26:56 AM
Brian,

To me, PB6 will become an "advanced beta"  when I have been presented with either the (i) results, (ii) scope and (iii) subject of beta testing obtained by a group of identified (as opposite to anonymous) beta-testers, or my own results as an individual in an audience of potential buyers/would-be users who have public access to a usable copy of official beta.

Without those prerequisites, I'm considering PB6 an alpha unless the alleged beta-testers identify themselves publicly to support your claims and reveal the items as enumerated above.

Either way, the ball is still on your side of the playground.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 01, 2019, 11:17:41 AM
Quote
Thats why i said it would be cool to also support Swift syntax.

I just built Swift 5.1.2 (released Nov. 7 2019) for the Raspberry Pi. Swift reminds me of the core values I found in ScriptBasic.

I'm in the process of installing Swift for Windows. It looks like it comes with a WX GUI extension. Motivation for me to connect IUP I ported to the RPi and the current Swift build for the RPi.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on December 01, 2019, 05:26:15 PM
@ John, Thats interesting John, what kind of stuff are you doing with the raspberry?

@ Mike

...To me...

 You can consider it whatever you want Mike. As far as im concerned you can consider it non existent, but it is not
very nice to declare categorically something that is not true simply because you consider it to be so, as if others had
to report to you to label their project states?  It stops being "to you" (and professional) when you declare it "for others".

 With al due respect, you have no authority over that.  :)

 That said, i understand your point of view. I may assemble a group of PB'ers with knowledge of other platforms for
 beta testing publicly, including any of the current group who whish to stay.



Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on December 01, 2019, 11:52:27 PM
Brian,

Your attitude to the problems you're facing is not correct economically. In a post-industrial economy, it isn't the product that matters -- it isn't a problem to buy anything as the choice is huge -- it is money that matters. The laws of free market say, the product is worth just as much as the buyer is ready to pay for it. And I as a potential buyer am not prepared to pay any-bloody-thing unless and until I'm shown, and made believe, that the product is worth its declared price and is unique, and it has to be my money that's to be paid for it.

In other words, the buyer is always right as it is his or her money that you, the seller, are hunting for. As simple as that.

A group of knowledgeable beta testers whose competence and skill are unquestionable in the group of potential buyers would in fact be a reasonable compromise. Their conclusion could do a much better job, PR-wise, than yours because authoritative people wouldn't be seeking a black Schroedinger cat in a dark room, especially if the cat isn't in there. :)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 02, 2019, 08:04:19 AM
Quote
@ John, Thats interesting John, what kind of stuff are you doing with the raspberry?

You should join us on the https://raspberrybasic.org forum if Swift and other languages are of interest.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on December 02, 2019, 01:08:47 PM

 I dont know what attitude you are talking about Mike.

...authoritative people wouldn't be seeking a black Schroedinger cat in a dark room, especially if the cat isn't in there. :)

  Yeah, :) By definition, we wont know until we know... or both. :D
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on December 02, 2019, 11:39:03 PM
You should join us on the https://raspberrybasic.org forum if Swift and other languages are of interest.

 John, i checked the link.  Thanks, i should be joining soon. :)
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on December 03, 2019, 06:33:59 AM
Great!

It would be cool to see PluriBASIC running on the RPi.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on July 25, 2020, 06:03:55 PM
Hi Brian,

Can you give us an update where you are with your Power Basic to O2 translator? (PluriBASIC)

Is O2 mature enough to release something soon?
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on July 26, 2020, 10:17:45 PM
 I already use it in an almost daily basis.

 I was waiting for Charles to fix the "sometimes non-runnable executable produced" issue before showing it to the rest that havent tried it yet.

 If i show it like this it might give a negative impression in either Oxygen or PluriBASIC, or maybe both.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on July 27, 2020, 07:08:49 AM
Thanks Brian for the update!

As soon as you have something stable I'll buy a license.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on July 29, 2020, 04:38:09 AM
Does PluriBASIC bring COM / OLE automation to O2?

Variant support would be great.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: Brian Alvarez on July 29, 2020, 06:59:54 PM

Unfortunately, not yet.

I would need to work closely with Charles to achieve this.
Title: Re: PluriBASIC
Post by: John on July 29, 2020, 09:10:50 PM
It looks like FreeBasic doesn't support COM/OLE automation either. It would seem implementing the Microsoft CallByName API (like ScriptBasic) might be a good first step.